As regular readers of this blog over the past year or so will know, I have invested time and ink (and even some money!) in the debate over the redefinition of marriage in the UK. I've tried to be incredibly specific, not getting my attention taken by the transformation, rejection and manipulation of various marriage laws in other countries, or various U.S. States. Its been an interesting journey. Sometimes I've had to bite my toungue, moderate comments, or just give up on a conversation. Other times it has been immensely liberating to explain things to someone, and see eyes and minds click. Regardless, it has been a significant debate.
Unfortunately, the entire issue has been marked with a great deal of apathy. From, apparently, everyone. This could mean that everyone who hasn't shown an interest is pro, or anti, or it could mean neither of the above. It could justify a referendum. It could not. Yet apathy remains. Statistics are published proving everything every which way - polls, it seems, can be massaged to get the figures you desire. And my personal experience of people - religious and non-religious, LGBT and not, political and a-political - has been interesting on this issue.
All the various themes were brought together last week when I, along with various people from various small groups, went along to a meeting on the topic of the redefinition of marriage held by a local MP. You can read one reflection/report on that evening here. It makes, in my opinion for depressing reading. And, I believe, it represents something of a microcosm of the national debate.
First, let me lay my cards on the table: I am a Christian, and whilst I love LGBT people, I don't think marriage should be redefined. My thoughts in this post will begin, then, with a brief set of Christian observations...
Many Christians forgot that the Gospel is about God's love.
Some Christians forgot that the Gospel is about God's Truth as well as love.
One observation came on the issue of the greatest commandment. We are told that the greatest commandment, the thing that Christians should be known for, is loving one another. Amen. But that isn't actually the greatest commandment. In the words of Jesus in Mark 12:28-34, the greatest commandment is something else; "you shall love the Lord with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength". The second, as a heart-overflow of the first, is to "love your neighbour as yourself". The Christian position on ethical issues should come first from establishing what God has said and second be articulated in terms of love for everyone.
The tone of the debate that evening was not, with a few notable exceptions, one of love. I would not expect this - it is far easier to throw terms around than it is to actually engage gracefully with substantive arguments. In many cases - and this is an observation I would make on both sides of the debate - there is a frightening lack of awareness of reality. Some examples:
Those on the 'pro' side...
- are apparently unaware of the meaning of marriage as it is currently enshrined in law
- are apparently unaware of the strength of feeling that religious beliefs can cause
- are apparently unaware of the consequences of rushing the redefinition of marriage
- are apparently closeted in a certain set of world-views and ideas that make debate with another opinion impossible
Those on the 'anti' side (which would include myself!)...
- are often definitely, from a Christian perspective, lacking the love element of the Christian Gospel
- are often, for many reasons, completely unaware of the reality of living life as an LGBT person in the UK
- are often, for many reasons, naive about the kinds of language used in political debates
- are often, though not exclusively in danger of appearing or downright being bigoted
- are often closeted in a certain set of world-views and ideas that make debate with another opinion impossible
One of the issues that was raised that evening - and is one of the un-addressed elements of the debate - is that of cost. Whilst it is slightly irritating to be reassured that 'all the gay weddings will pay for it', it does seem that there has not been enough work done on the costings. Two points come to mind; firstly the cost of changing computer software - one Government estimate, according to a friend with a background in relevant IT, is £2-4 million, and that is just software! Secondly, there is the issue of the committees, lawsuits, and huge range of cases that are essentially guaranteed to sort through the bill's as yet unforeseen aftermath.
The moral dimension, and the literal word-meaning dimension, of the whole debate is also frightening. A question was asked at the meeting along the lines of 'what about incest?'. The response was one that ridiculed a valid question. On what moral grounds, once you have redefined marriage from its constant core, can you still assert that, for example, a gay father and gay son cannot get married? Peter Ould makes this, and a number of other excellent points in posts beginning with his 'Questions for the Same-Sex Marriage Debate'. A second observation comes regarding definition. I will let my friends observation in an email suffice here;
"The young lesbian lady who made such a passionate plea about wanting to get married seemed to be the saddest case of all. When she thinks of "marriage" at the moment" her brain pulls in all the attributes that are attached to the concept perhaps better recognised as "heterosexual marriage". Once the meaning of the word is changed it no longer has all those attributes. In the act of generalising the term "marriage" to include additional categories, she loses the very concept she desires"
This touches on one of the key issues in the debate. What the Bill is proposing is not equality. There will be no Civil Partnerships for Heterosexual couples. There is no definition of consummation adultery and similar for same-sex couples. What will be created will not be 'equal marriage', or even 'gay-marriage', but instead gender-neutral-marriage, with all the attendant problems that will bring. The Bill fails on even its own definition of equality! Equality, in its true sense, is much bigger and better than this Bill proposes. Because Equality on its own is not enough. As an over-riding principle it is insufficient, and as a one-size fits all approach it is inadequate. It fails to recognise the constant tension and unity of humanity. I explored what this means in my post 'True Equality', which I'd recommend you read.
Finally, I want to come in to close by a brief discussion of the use, constant and unceasing in this poorly-held debate (I refer here to the national debate!) on marriage, of 'homophobic'. This word has a broadly subjective definition, and ranges from the obvious 'fear of homosexuality' to the commonly used 'against homosexual equality'. Many Christians throughout the years have run the full gamut of Homophobia, and I believe Al Mohler's challenge to the Church on this issue is prophetic. This word is often used to close down a discussion. In a liberal democracy, that is unaccessible. I don't personally want to cross the rubicon and invent the word 'heterophobic', I would rather partake in public discourse that went beyond name-calling and soundbites.
Wouldn't you?
I close by merely stating what I have been saying throughout this debate. The Church needs to do a better job of relating to culture in general, and the LGBT Community in particular. I'm working on what is rapidly becoming a book on that topic. The Government has rushed this process, and has ended up with flawed and unequal (by any standards) legislation that is not fit for purpose. The mood of the people is not clear, Stonewall can be wrong, and the numbers just don't add up. Gay marriage needs to be at the very least better thought through, and ideally in mind not legalised, not out of some anti-LGBT mentality, but because there are better things to do, and it would not represent a recognisable extension of marriage.
I hope this post has made sense. I realise it has been long. And probably rambling. And definitely trying to do too many things. But I hope that we can dialogue on this issue. Respectfully. I apologise if I offend. But I honestly think that speaking out on this issue is necessary. Even as it links to a wider Crisis of Human-Hood. I'd encourage you to read my post 'Christianity and Homosexuality: A New Approach", to understand some of the religious background to what I'm saying. I'd also recommend Cranmer's piece dismantling exactly what is wrong with the Bill. And if you agree with me, keep letting your MP's know, and above all, if you pray, pray.
Thank-you for reading.
______________
UPDATE 29/11/13 - A great new website launched today, looking at this complex issue through the perspective of individuals, theological thought, and book reviews. Endorsed by some great folks and well designed, check out Living Out!



Tom, if gay marriage was condoned today by the Church would you renounce your faith? Would anyone? I would imagine very few true Christians would. Therefore, what has Christianity got to lose? It would only gain, potentially, a number of happy, more secure, loving, married!, LGBT people that feel the church has, as it has throughout its history, held out a hand to those marginalised members of society. Isn't that a good thing?
ReplyDeleteHi Anonymous, thanks for your comment!
DeleteI would not, no, because I don't know which church you are referring to! If the movement I am in condoned it, then I would leave that movement.
Christianity has a lot to lose but even more to gain. Holding out our hands to the marginalised is indeed the Christian calling - but I fail to see how condoning gay marriage fulfills that calling! Given what I have said elsewhere about marriage and Christian teaching on orthodoxy, the most loving thing is to calmly and firmly 'hold the line', WHILST continuing to do everything Jesus is calling individuals and churches to do. That starts with the simple proclamation of the Gospel - that Christ died for sinners, of whom I am one, in order to give them life to the full with God.
I think the reason why so many of us don't comment openly is because of the vile bombardment of those who dare to make a stand. This doesn't seem to happen to anything else we stand for. I have openly declared I'm a Christian but gay marriage seems to be a whole new ball game for the evil doers.
ReplyDeleteHi Bestestnana24, thanks for your comment.
DeleteThis is a good observation - and echoes my experience! Interested that you have had similar. That said, we do need to be aware of using the phrase 'evil doers'!
You claim to be reasonable and open to substantive argument but in this column you first blindly quote scripture, base an entire argument on some frankly offensive assertion that gay sex 'doesn't count' and then actually compare homosexuality to incest. However many platitudes you dress your it in, homophobia is still homophobia as hard as you might protest otherwise
ReplyDeleteHi Ben, thanks for your comment.
DeleteThankyou for challenging my claim, I hope I can respond well! Firstly on 'blindly quoting scripture', I am simply asserting (in line with a properly basic reading of Jesus!) that the first commandment in importance is to love God, and that loving others flows out of that. This was in response to various people claiming the second was the first, which is patently untrue.
I apologise but I don't see any point in this post where I claim gay sex 'doesn't count'. That would indeed be an offensive assertion, but it is one I don't make, and whilst my religious views in your opinion may amount to that, such an assertion is nowhere in this post.
I don't compare homosexuality to incest - I merely point out that if you throw out a moral framework it is then very hard to come up with a substantive argument against other forms of sexual activity. The classic 'it is against the law' becomes moot once the law is changed - same-sex marriage is 'against the law' at the moment, yet the commons vote clearly sends a signal that that law is wrong, hence the need for change. Please note I don't compare the two, I am merely demonstrating the faulty assumptions underlying a broken piece of rushed legislation.
Regarding you statement that I am homophobic, that is your opinion, I disagree. I am not hating or fearing anyone, except perhaps fearing religious extremists. My position on the push for gender-neutral marriage is based on my reason - if you disagree, then please engage in a reasoned fashion with the points I have made, rather than referring to me as homophobic.
Thanks again for your comment, I appreciate you taking the time to read my post and write it.
To clarify some of the criticisms I made, firstly I was of the impression that the issues you raised with the definition of consummation and adultery do indeed imply that gay sex doesn't count. Otherwise this would surely be no issue.
DeleteAs for the question of incest, I think the key difference is the level of genetic harm that can be brought about through incest and would challenge the assertion that the only moral guidance one may seek is that set down by church or state as opposed to a personal analysis of the situation.
I would be interested to hear your response, particularly to the former complaint. Perhaps there has been a misunderstanding somewhere.
Hi again Ben, thanks for engaging further!
DeleteRegarding consummation, I probably wasn't clear. The issue with the new legislation is that it fails to define consummation or adultery for same-sex marriages. This creates, based on the pre-existing legal definition, a non-equal and new form of relationship. In order to call it 'marriage', in the pre-existing legal understanding, that work needs to be done. It may well be the government doesn't want to get bogged down in the detail - unfortunately, as they say, the devil is in the details and law requires well-thought through complexity!
I agree - but I ask again what is 'wrong' with a father and son, or brother and brother, etc, 'getting married'? The idea of genetic harm falls apart. Genetic harm is only an issue with procreating relationships - so why would you not have a problem with one of those unions?
I appreciate your pushback, and intend to get around to editing the point re consummation.
thanks again for your comments.
If the possibility of genetic harm is all that is keeping incestuous heterosexual marriage from existing, then why do we not currently allow infertile mothers and sons to marry? Could a brother and sister marry if he had a vasectomy or she a hysterectomy?
DeleteIf the answer is still no, these marriages should not take place, then there is more to denying incestuous marriage than the argument surrounding producing children; there must be some other moral factors in play. If this is the case, then why do these moral factors not then apply to same sex relationships/marriages? In both cases you have couples that cannot combine DNA to produce children. If you argue that heterosexual and infertile incestuous marriages can't take place then there's no reason to think that incestuous same sex marriages would be allowed if you permit non-incestuous same sex marriages.
Hi Amy, thanks for your comment (and the other larger one to which I will reply!). I think you are getting at the crux of the issue - where do we get our morality/ideas from?
DeleteTo be honest, outside of a Judeo-Christian foundation to our legal morality, such as it is, there are no good arguments against incestuous marriages, especially in a non-procreating case. That said, it depends entirely on what you think marriage is for - individuals or community. A society/community/family based ideal of marriage hinges on healthy procreation (as we 'we' have decided children of incest are not ideal) which can't happen in some form of relationships. Thus, the argument goes, we are not talking about marriage but something else. In the case of same-sex couples, the Government calls this 'Civil Partnership'.
I would like to start by saying that it is refreshing to hear from someone who recognises that there are those on both sides of this argument that are refusing to see others' points of view. I am in favour of same sex marriage and I recognise that there are those on my side of the fence that are being hurtful and/or unhelpful when debating this issue, just as there are those against same sex marriage that do the same.
ReplyDeleteI found your blog from the comment pages of the Beestonia article about Anna Soubry's public consultation of the then upcoming parliamentary debate. I did actually stand up and speak in favour of gay marriage at that consultation, I was the gay woman who spoke about wanting to get married - the one that *didn't* call everyone bigots (as I said, there are unhelpful comments from both sides of the fence).
I believe it is me your friend refers to when he says: "When she thinks of marriage at the moment her brain pulls in all the attributes that are attached to the concept perhaps better recognised as heterosexual marriage. Once the meaning of the word is changed it no longer has all those attributes. In the act of generalising the term marriage to include additional categories, she loses the very concept she desires". You describe this as a valid point, I'm afraid I must disagree.
Your friend is making a lot of assumptions about me and my brain. His statement is only correct if I were pulling in attributes from only one view of marriage: that it is the coming together of a man and a woman (in the sight of god) to become one flesh and start a family. This is not a view that I share. If this was the picture of marriage from which I drew my attributes then yes, changing the definition of marriage to allow me to marry the woman I love than yes, I would never be able to achieve what I desire. This is not the view that I hold of marriage. Firstly, I don't see marriage in terms of gender (one man, one woman) I see it as two people that love each other. Secondly, I do not see the purpose of marriage as creating a stable base to raise children; I believe that marriage can exist without children and that loving, stable families can exist outside of marriage; furthermore I believe that gay couples can make wonderful, loving parents.
If I were to define marriage I would say that it is a universally recognised, legal union of two people; a loving commitment made before friends and family, one that everyone understands and upholds. Civil partnerships do not meet this definition as they are not universally recognised in law or by individuals in their every day lives, it is a second class option. This is the concept from which I draw the attributes of marriage that I want to be a part of. I believe that extending the legal definition of marriage to include same sex couples would satisfy my personal concept of marriage (as described above). I am genuinely interested to know, do you think that it would not? How do you think including same sex couples in marriage will change *my* view of what marriage is?
From the meeting I did take away a better understanding of the beliefs of others that were opposed to marriage, and why they felt so strongly about it. Although I may not agree with others' beliefs, I do think it is important to understand them.
Amy, hi again and thanks for the comment! I enjoyed reading this, and appreciate you taking the time to engage further on this issue.
ReplyDeleteI agree my friend is making assumptions - I maintain that they are not unreasonable given the CURRENT definition of marriage, and the fact that (I expect!) he doesn't personally know you.
I hope you will permit me to make the observation that in your two definitions of marriage - 'two people that love each other' and 'If I were to define marriage', BOTH of those fall foul of not reflecting reality.
The UN Declaration of Human Rights has THIS: (From here: http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/)
Article 16.
(1) Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found a family. They are entitled to equal rights as to marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution.
(2) Marriage shall be entered into only with the free and full consent of the intending spouses.
(3) The family is the natural and fundamental group unit of society and is entitled to protection by society and the State.
Point (3) says what marriage is for, point (1) makes clear the male/female nature, and its purpose of family (which starts as the couple, not necessarily including children), (2) protects it from abuse. I agree with you that CP's are not universally recognised - clearly the UN needs to think through what it means - and would not oppose moves to 'edit' CP's to more usefully exist, alongside marriage.
You are absolutely right that extending the legal definition would satisfy your 'personal concept'. The problem I have is that there are potentially as many 'personal concepts' as their are people who can have conceptual thoughts! Society/state NEEDS a consensus, for the good of everyone. We can't go for personal concepts in this realm, as it would get far two confusing.
Your comment is interesting because whilst we CLEARLY want essentially opposing outcomes (you support redefintion, I oppose it), we also CLEARLY have different understandings of marriage. This, perhaps, is where the debate gets interesting.
I want to close by stating what should be obvious, but I am aware the Church and Christians have not been good at. There ARE families that exist outside what one might call 'the ideal', and these are not bad. Single parents are wonderful, and have powerful sacrifice and love that I am in awe of. And there are many other family models besides that. I don't want to ignore that. I personalyl think - for various reasons and CURRENTLY supported by Law and the UN definition, that the best/ideal model is the two biological parent model. Life is complex - I don't wish to ignore that - but ideals are helpful. That said, I do think ideals that are not part of a wider system for people who for whatever reason fall outside of a definition (I think particularly of those who 'remain single' for any reason), are not ideals, and not good. I personally think, broadly speaking, that the framework that currently exists is good.
I apologise for the slightly rambling and garbled nature of this response! Thanks again for commenting, and I look forward to your response, should you wish to write one.
Forgive the late in time nature of this response, Tom, but I though t I should just point out what I think is an error of question-begging in your response to Amy. The UNDHR does indeed say "(1) Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found a family.". However, there is no case law nor commentary (to the best of my knowledge, and I have researched it) that has tested whether this statement means - as you want it to - that a man has the right to marry a woman and vice versa; OR if it means, which would serve the equal marriage campaign, that men have the right to marry, and women have the right to marry, without any of the limitations listed. Which would clearly allow in principle the possibility of a demand that men should be able to marry men etc. Just a thought.
DeleteHi Anonymous, thanks for the comment.
DeleteThat is a helpful challenge 0 though I would observe that possibility is a tentative basis on which to base an argument. If I can find the time (This is all somewhat of a moot point given that gender-neutral marriage becomes law this weekend!) I would love to look into that, though.
Thanks for commenting - a good challenge, as I say.
Tom
Can I just comment on your penultimate paragraph, Tom?
ReplyDeleteI can't be bothered to discuss gay marriage because what theologans often forget is that the majority of society doesn't have the capacity to understand all the complicated concepts you put across to justify arguments. They see real people, real lives. They see the outcomes of your views, which are hurtful and segregatory.
Anyway, I would like to challenge the 'two biological parent model' which you say is the ideal model for life. This, in my opinion, is one reason for the failure of the church to grow/attract people seriously wanting to grapple with grace. Your model amounts to meeting a nice girl at university, only having close christian friends, getting engaged early, having the financial support from rich family to be able to get married young, both being heterosexual, both being fertile, both being christians, keeping non-Christians at arms length, nobody dying, nobody getting divorced, nobody doubting god.
This is not possible for lots of society. Not everyone is rich enough to be a Christian. Or middle class enough. Or heterosexual enough. Or fertile enough. People have problems. People go to prison. People doubt god. People are not intelligent enough to understand lots of these blogs. People love people who don't fit inside your model. By stating an ideal model, you are managing to alienate the majority of the world.
I have been forced to move churches because I do not fit inside your model. Most people would have left the church in my position but I'm too stubborn for that. Get outside of your books, and start looking at reality.
You are allowed to have opinions even if they make lots of people actively dislike you. That's fine. I hope you are happy in your ideal model. However unfortunately, it doesn't work for most people so church will just end up getting narrower and narrower. I'm sure everyone within it will be nice and happy. I think I'll sit outside and hang out with everyone else who God created and loves, thanks.
Hi Anonymous, thanks for the comment.
DeleteI hear what you say, and assume you know me and my story reasonably well. I don't think you know how its gone fully though, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.
I appreciate your challenge to get out of my books - that is an increasing concern of mine, and it is why I am at the church I am at. I think it is vitally important to be engaged in the real world while reading and studying. I haven't been in a formal course of study this year, I've been working in a church, including lots of outreach and social justice stuff.
I'm not saying the ideal is easy, but I believe God's ideal is often clear in scripture. There is never a demand for people to be rich/middle class/heterosexual/fertile/problem-free/prison-free/doubt/free/intelligent to become a christian. Never. The reality and the call is Jesus, and him being King of our lives. That looks different at different stages.
Thanks again for your comment. I hope I managed to explain a few things.
Tom
Hi,
ReplyDeleteThanks for your reply and I'm sorry that it's taken so long for me to get back to you.
In much of your reply, to refer to the 'current' definition of marriage, as laid out by law and in the human rights convention. I would say though the whole point of this discussion is to look at a change in the legal definition of marriage. Quoting current legal definitions of marriage to defend the fact that the law shouldn't be changed strikes me as a circular argument.
If I may, I would like to refer to something that you wrote: "The problem I have is that there are potentially as many 'personal concepts' as their are people who can have conceptual thoughts! Society/state NEEDS a consensus, for the good of everyone. We can't go for personal concepts in this realm, as it would get far two confusing."
I agree that there needs to be a consensus, but why should that consensus be what you consider to be marriage? Why can't it reflect what I believe? You may argue that I am in the minority, I would argue that first of all it is a significant minority, and in some demographics there are more people in favour of same sex marriage than against it. Secondly, just because a majority of people want something, does that give them a right to have it at the expense of others? Did the majority of people in the American South want to keep segregation laws during the civil rights movement? Does that mean that they should have remained?
The problem is that if society keeps to your personal concept of marriage, then I am hurt by it. I am hurt emotionally, to be told that my relationship is ultimately not good enough to be considered as the basis for a family, and I am hurt because I am ostracised from my community; I am being told that I cannot fully take part in society. I am not allowed to participate fully in society in the same way as heterosexuals - my choices are to either accept a second class solution in a same sex relationship, or to marry a man that I have no attraction to and to live in a loveless marriage, which would not be good for either myself or the man I married. By aligning with your personal concept of marriage, my rights are being withheld from me.
By changing the legal definition of marriage, bearing in mind that those with faith can still chose to believe whatever definition they so wish, could you tell me if you believe that your rights would be affected? I know that there is a concern over what people would be allowed to say, or to teach in schools, and I do think that's an important issue, but if we try to focus on the issue at hand for now: how are a Christian's rights directly affected by a change in the law? How are they hurt? It's difficult for me to understand because as someone who doesn't believe in God, I can separate the definition of marriage as given by the state, and the definition of marriage as given by the Bible. Can these two not be separate?
Amy, thanks for commenting again.
ReplyDeleteI first want to be very wary of going into the racial discussion, because it is a completely different conversation. See Tatchell's remarks on what 'makes' people gay for more. http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2006/jun/28/borngayormadegay
Fundamentally, and this is clear, you and I disagree on what the definition of marriage is. The government currently agrees with you, more than mine, but I hope we can both agree that the national debate has been lacking.
I'm intrigued as to why you refer to cp's as a second class solution? I am aware of some disparity in rights, but if this was addressed, would you still see it as being a second class solution?
I see your point about separate definitions of marriage. I think that is a fair one - the issue in the UK is the established church, and the way in which Christianity dovetails a lot of constitutional law. The current proposed redefinition doesn't adequately deal with that. You don't have to look too far to see Christians who have lost jobs and livelihood as a result of their views. A truly tolerant democracy wouldn't allow that - perhaps the bigger question behind the topic of gender-neutral marriage is one of what kind of society we want, and how much we feel the government should be a moral arbiter.
It is a fascinating conversation.
Thanks again for commenting, apologies if I make for an addled response today, the heat is making me rather drowsy!